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Discussion

JasonPStewartNMsnc2016 wrote:

2 hrs ago

Sharing seeking more evidences : https://www.facebook.com/groups/332752936930981/posts/2925113257694923/

Of course this sighting page has privacy kept – only us, you the author and moderators, can see the location information and the links to your sighting's private authorship.

With ease I will delete that FB post if you're not happy about it.

Elaeocarpus holopetalus

JasonPStewartNMsnc2016 wrote:

4 hrs ago

I'll leave this confirmation of identification for just a few days, for me (or us) to have reflection on these considerations. Before going any further towards serious consideration of a hybrid.

In summary so far,
for examples' features for consideration:

• these lack of pulvini (on the petioles' distal ends),
• these 5mm short petioles,
• these leaves when they have grown out fully have stiffness,
• these leaves' regularly toothed margins all the way along,
fit the description of _Elaeocarpus holopetalus_

• at least to the eyes of us both, the apparent, hairless tiny foveoles, type of domatia,
fit the description of _Elaeocarpus reticulatus_

• these young plants leaves larger than mature leaves of _Elaeocarpus holopetalus_,
may fit the description of young vigorously growing _Elaeocarpus holopetalus_ plants
Young sapling rainforest plants often have much larger leaves, especially in semi-shade through to full shade and sufficient soil moisture conditions, (rather than exposed in full sun, with dry soil or exposed in cold frost or snow conditions (physiological dryness)).
Or may fit the description of _Elaeocarpus reticulatus_ (too easily here).

• the hairless, glabrous leaves including on their undersides,
May fit the documented glabrous form of _Elaeocarpus holopetalus_ in the region there,
Or may fit the not documented anywhere that i have yet found, botanical inferring towards hybridisation or introgression of parts of genes between these two 'species'.

Compare with the Plants of SE. NSW information pages:
• → https://apps.lucidcentral.org/plants_se_nsw/text/entities/elaeocarpus_holopetalus.htm
• → https://apps.lucidcentral.org/plants_se_nsw/text/entities/elaeocarpus_reticulatus.htm
.

Phylogenetics –interesting to have this added information,
quotation: "
Within the _Elaeocarpus_ clade, _E. holopetalus_ is resolved as a distinct lineage that is placed sister to the remainder of the taxa. Apart from _E. holopetalus_, a total of 13 main lineages or clades are resolved: ...
"
Phoon, Sook-Ngoh (2015)
Systematics and biogeography of _Elaeocarpus_ (Elaeocarpaceae).
PhD thesis, James Cook University.
https://researchonline.jcu.edu.au/43783/

Elaeocarpus holopetalus

JasonPStewartNMsnc2016 wrote:

5 hrs ago

Yeah thank you for the close-up photograph,
these do appear to me too:
hairless tiny foveoles, type of domatia .

Elaeocarpus holopetalus

JasonPStewartNMsnc2016 wrote:

5 hrs ago

Alright. Wow thank you for responding with these fine–great! details !

I am conferring with more sources including this:

• Harden Gwen, Hugh Nicholson, Bill McDonald, Nan Nicholson, Terry Tame and John Williams (2024)  
Rainforest Plants of Au : Rockhampton to Victoria .

• these identification requests in FB NSW native plants ID group:
→ https://www.facebook.com/groups/332752936930981/posts/2758654974340753/
→ https://www.facebook.com/groups/332752936930981/posts/1286160494923549/
→ https://www.facebook.com/groups/332752936930981/posts/1289235571282708/

• and looking for further sources.

In the end i may use leaves venation patterns, species–signatures, to go further to identification.

It has made me start to wonder about the question of do hybrids ever occur between _Elaeocarpus holopetalus_ and _Elaeocarpus reticulatus_
eg. breeding systems compatibility and phenology timings,
or some genes' introgression of some genes of between them, between their usual habitat ranges.
–won't become an excuse to give up on identification as best as possible though, here.

Elaeocarpus holopetalus

MartinPredavec wrote:

5 hrs ago

@JasonPStewartNMsnc2016 Thank you again.

• these leaves have no hairs (or so very few) on their undersides ? Correct - I would say no hairs. In terms of the broad distribution of Elaeocarpus holopetalus, I am close to Barrington Tops.
• these petioles measure less than 10mm long ? - The petioles are about 5mm
• these petioles have no distal end swelling – aka pulvini ? - no swelling
• not even tiny domatia ? - I've said no, but on closer inspection there may be very small ones. I've put a close up picture in the collection above.

Regarding the size of the leaves - they are about 7-8 cm long and 2-3 cm wide. A few of the leaves are pliable (they are the ones with a red tinge) but most are 'stiff'.

Elaeocarpus holopetalus